Tobold once again manages to start a fiery discussion in the blogosphere by asserting something bizzare and then claiming that he honestly believes it and has always believed it. What can I say .. Thanks for the nice topic to blog about ?
However, instead of discussing his assertion:
( "You have a social responsibility to play tank/healer in LFD PUGs" ),
I would like to find out, why so few players play a tank/healer in LFD PUGs, in the first place. Because, honestly, I find that a bit strange.
And I am not the only one. Larísa comments:
And actually a part of the enjoyment probably was that I felt less questioned as a healer than as a dps. There's a lot of healer love. A lot of gratitude. And no e-peening. It gives you a very pleasant feeling in the stomach. And if that wasn't enough, if you pair up with a good tank, you've got it all in your hands. You're in power in a way that you never ever are as dps.
This is actually the reason I mostly PUG as tank. Playing a druid I can change my role fairly easy, but I hate to play kitty in PUGs. Those tanks never pull the boss where I can attack it from behind without standing in the fire. If they get out of the fire all!
Tank does't use his interrupts? Doesn't use his cooldowns? Forgets to tank that caster? Such things don't happen when I am the tank.
Playing tank gives me control and authority. You wanna blame me? Be careful, because I need half a second to join the next group. Somebody leaves - even a healer? No problem, there's the next one. Try that with a tank that left your group.
Attitude towards dps in PUGs is terrible. I have yet to try to kick a dps and fail at it. Attitude towards the healer, and especially the tank, is friendly. I have not been kicked ever since the invention of the LFD.
But if I am correct, then why do so few players play tank/healer in PUGs?
Because they shy away from the authority, from the responsibility, from the disturbing fact that they could fail. And they do it out of what Gevlon would call Ape residues :). They are doubtful towards themselves. They don't want to disappoint themselves. Imagine you play a tank (for the first time) and make a mistake!! Imagine the healer points that out! How embarassing!
Moreover, many players do not know the dungeon as well and as a tank you are exspected to make the first step - for good reasons, btw.
if i understood correctly, you imply that most players choose to play dps classes because they can't handle tanks and healers?
ReplyDeletewhile this is a valid hypothesis i could not help but wonder whether there is even simpler explanation?
could it be that the reason most players chose the DPS role is... that they actually play a pure dps class?
ok, this might sound silly or trolling, so let me elaborate:
there are 10 classes in wow.
2 of them have access to 3 roles (dps+2)
4 of them have access to 2 roles (dps+1)
and 4 more have access only to 1 role (dps only)
now you see - 40% of the class options end up stuck in just one role (within the game metaphor. rolling an alt is an out-of-game utility)
so on character select, when you're picking the fluff that best expresses you as a creative person - your racial origin and cool profession - there's almost 50-50 chance that you can make a choice that shoehorns you in a deadend pure class...
and you realize your mistake about 2 months and 80 levels too late.
is it any wonder then, that there's such a discrepancy in numbers for roles? each an every class can play as DPS and on top of that almost half of the classes can play only that. how can we then act surprised that DPS is the most played role?
Firefox, I do not imply that players play dps, because they cannot handle tank/healer.
ReplyDeleteI assume that players shy away from the responsibility. They fear that they might disappoint themselves; which would be even more painful when it happens in front of others.
Whether this fear is justified or not, I do not claim to know.
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Otherwise, I agree that the fact that some classes cannot tank/heal plays a role, too. But your 40% were derived from the assumption of equal distribution of players in respect to classes. That would be wrong.
oh i completely agree with you - the distribution is not equal (as it is based on metaphor presentation and peer pressure and general cultural influences).
ReplyDeleteand i think there is a significant "shyness" factor, coming from the unholy coupling of responsibility and inexperience.
i'm just stating that, in my opinion the problem with grouping is not morality, nor incentives as it does not lie in the playerbase at all.
in this particular case i blame blizzard almost exclusively.
why so harsh words? well here's my reasoning:
wow released with classes designed mostly around the pure-class philosophy, with just a few experimental versatile options such as druid and paladin.
fast enough the problems with that emerged and glaring design flaw of putting pure-tank/healer classes in a game with dps progression had to be addressed.
and it was, but half-assedly - the pure tank/healer classes got a dps spec, but the pure-class paradigm itself was not rethought or questioned.
so the problem still stands and right now it is again reducing itself to absurd - if a player has perfect knowledge and ignores metaphor 100%, there is absolutely no reason to play mage/lock instead of shadowpriest or shaman. same goes for melee and ranged dps. it's gimping your own character to select any of the pure-classes now.
for me, this makes it obvious that pure-classes should not exist at all, the supply of "community service" specs such as tank and healer should be increased in the form of such specs for the pure classes.
i think that that way the responsibility aversion would reduce too - as all players are almost equally introduced to those roles in the scope of their class of choice and in due time - i.e. early on in the game.
well, at least this is my opinion :) i hope i got it through more clearly this time
It's never made that much sense to me, since I was sad when WoW changed to not needing dps to crowd control. Back in the day, as a mage, I had to dps, but also keep at least one mob out of the fight, and I really enjoyed the challenge of keeping one CCed and kiting another while also dpsing.
ReplyDeleteI guess what I'm saying is that I think you're right, Nils, that there's a specific part of the player base that doesn't want the responsibility (or difficulty in a few cases?) of doing more than moving the team incrementally toward success.
And I think when Blizzard removed the need for CC in WotLK, they were answering that preference. Now, with Cataclysm? I don't know.
Wait, I don't tank because I "shy away from the authority, from the responsibility, from the disturbing fact that (I) could fail"?
ReplyDeleteSo, explain why you DO tank? Does it make you evolutionarily superior to non-tanks? Perhaps you NEED to tank in order to convince yourself that you're good enough or better than others?
I've tanked. It's not that difficult. You do need to know a few boss mechanics. Learning new content is difficult...for all classes. New is new.
The main difference is that the tank is in front, and by convention, sets the pace and setup of pulls. The mechanics of successful tanking require that. They do not, however, require the tank to have any leadership skills or authority of any kind.
Tanks have no more authority or responsiblity in a random PuG than any other class. You might want to believe that you do, but you don't.
That said, tanking FEELS more stressful, and IMO that's because the archetypal raid leader is the tank, calling out commands, evaluating wipes, removing poor performers.
That commanding presence is now what we've accepted that tanks have to be. Thus casual, but very competent players shy away from it. Rather than weakness or fear of responsibility, it's the overblown ego of tanks that has caused the shortage.
Bristal, please read carefully before you answer. And don't assume more than there is written.
ReplyDeleteWait, I don't tank because I "shy away from the authority, from the responsibility, from the disturbing fact that (I) could fail"?
I have no idea why you as a person don't tank. I don't even know if you don't tank in PUGs. I was guessing reasons why there are so few tanks/healers in LFD although I consider it a fairly nice experience; better than playing DD.
So, explain why you DO tank?
I tank because tanking is really easy compared to doing dps or heal in Cataclysm. And because I have a lot of control and authority. You know, if I don't want to make boss X, we don't do it. If I want to do boss Y, we do it. If I think the bossfight should commence over there, it will. If I want to pull fast, because I need to eat before the raid, I do it (assuming the healer has mana). etc.
Does it make you evolutionarily superior to non-tanks? Perhaps you NEED to tank in order to convince yourself that you're good enough or better than others?
I don't think so.
I've tanked. It's not that difficult. You do need to know a few boss mechanics. Learning new content is difficult...for all classes. New is new.
I agree. And this is exactly my point. Why do so few people tank/heal? It is NOT because it is so hard, but because they shy away from the control, from the authority and responsibility that comes with control.
The main difference is that the tank is in front, and by convention, sets the pace and setup of pulls. The mechanics of successful tanking require that. They do not, however, require the tank to have any leadership skills or authority of any kind.
The mechanics don't require authority, they grant it.
Tanks have no more authority or responsiblity in a random PuG than any other class. You might want to believe that you do, but you don't.
Wrong for the reasons I listed above.
That said, tanking FEELS more stressful, and IMO that's because the archetypal raid leader is the tank, calling out commands, evaluating wipes, removing poor performers.
Interesting. I think wether tanking feels more stressful depends on your character as a player and how much the added responsibility and control results in psychological stress for you.
That commanding presence is now what we've accepted that tanks have to be. Thus casual, but very competent players shy away from it.
I think we have accepted it for good reasons: The mechnics convey it.
Rather than weakness or fear of responsibility, it's the overblown ego of tanks that has caused the shortage.
Now that is a jump to conclusions I wouldn't agree with. Maybe it plays a small role, but it certainly is not the whole explanation :)
Verilazic, I agree with you. Let me add that the CC in groups is indeed a strange beast.
ReplyDeleteFrom a pure gameplay point of view I consider CC in trash mob groups cumbersome. Not a good mechanic.
But, as so often in MMORPGs, a not-so-good gameplay mechanic can support immersion and thus turn out beneficial. In this case the CC created the feeling of having to deal with dangerous enemies. And, actually: sheeping enemies .. isn't that cool ? :)
The combination of daily quests, exspectations that have been created by WotLK and daily habits of people playing WotLK after work, are a problem for Cataclysm. It is, as always in MMORPGs, not the thing itself that is less fun, but the fact that it is embedded in an environment that is not compatible with it.
If heroics are supposed to be real hard they should not be made a daily quest, because that makes you feel as if you lose something (70 valor points) if you don't do your daily heroic. As others have already written, Cataclysm tries to guide the player more than prior expansions and in this case it try to guide many players to a point where they just don't want to go: Doing a daily heroic of significal difficulty.
@Firefox
ReplyDeleteSomething to consider... while 40% HAVE to be DPS 100% CAN be DPS. I tank on my druid for alot of reasons. Everytime a paladin or war enter my group as DPS I can't help but shake my head at them.
I don't think it's shirking responsibility to queue as a pure dps in the LFD.
ReplyDeleteMy name is Erinia. I am a death knight and I absolutely HATE tanking. (You can stage an intervention later). I'll take my 40 minute queue and only complain if the group falls apart shortly after.
Before people get all accusatory, they should ask themselves a question. "Do I want a tank or healer in my LFD who hates tanking or healing?" Hopefully they answer no because miserable tanks and healers do not tank or heal to the best of their abilities.
Now, I am a competent tank, but I do not have fun when I tank. And guess what, WoW, when it's all said and done, is a game, and you are supposed to have fun.
Great post!!!
Ladyerinia, I agree. Having somebody tank/heal for some (epic) carrot alone isn't in anybodys interest.
ReplyDeleteThere is no social responsibility involved here, either. The idea is nothing else but bizzare. It's a game that gains a majority of its fascination from playing an avatar you like.
I never tanked or healed in wow, because the seemingly hectic pace of it scared me and I didn't think I'd be any good at. I actually did suck at rogue pvp and that requires a similar (i'd say) amount of precision and coordination. So I don't think my fears were completely baseless.
ReplyDelete