There are three kinds of MMO players:
1) PvE guys. They don't care much about the virtual word. All they want is a group and a big boss. Teleporting around the world is great, because travel is boring. They dominate World of Warcraft.
2) PvP guys. They don't care about the virtual world at all. All they want to do is to test their 'skills'; that often is latency+reaction times. Sometimes it also incorporates skills that require smart thinking. For PvP guys it is of tremendious importance that all fights are as fair as possible on a level as low as possible. WoW Arena, and Counter Strike are perfect examples.
3) Virtual World guys: The most important thing is the credibility, immersion and consistency of the world. They care about the story that they experience. Take Wolfshead Online, or myself, for example.
Now, since the credibility of the world usually requires that you can not only engage with special PvE mobs, but also other players, group (3) usually also favours PvP to some extend. That doesn't make them 'PvPer', however. Group (3) enjoys high-sec in EVE, because it is credible that the PvE run empires protect their space and disallow wild shooting. They enjoy that in theory you could attack somebody else in high-sec, although almost nobody does it. They enjoy a gang of 4 high level undeads rogues in a WoW starter area, as it adds flavor to the world.
In contrast to group (2), group (3) doesn't really care that much about the level at which PvP is fair, or wether it is fair at all. As long as they experience a story that is immersive, credible and consistent they are all right.
They are the kind of people who angrily leave the cinema, because the evil guy was once again artificially stupid (which is why he was defeated). And besides: Why did he want to destroy the entire universe in the first place ??
Group (2) faces the prejudice of being anti social. Visit a WoW non-RP PvP server for a taste.
Group (1) faces the prejudice of being emotionally unstable. If their virtual character gets teleported against their will due to an action of another player they scream and whine. (But it doesn't matter at all, if 'only' a PvE mob is responsible).
Group (3) doesn't face much prejudice, because there are very few games for them. The PvP RP servers of WoW originally attracted some of them. As did Darkfall and EVE Online, of course.
1) PvE guys. They don't care much about the virtual word. All they want is a group and a big boss. Teleporting around the world is great, because travel is boring. They dominate World of Warcraft.
2) PvP guys. They don't care about the virtual world at all. All they want to do is to test their 'skills'; that often is latency+reaction times. Sometimes it also incorporates skills that require smart thinking. For PvP guys it is of tremendious importance that all fights are as fair as possible on a level as low as possible. WoW Arena, and Counter Strike are perfect examples.
3) Virtual World guys: The most important thing is the credibility, immersion and consistency of the world. They care about the story that they experience. Take Wolfshead Online, or myself, for example.
Now, since the credibility of the world usually requires that you can not only engage with special PvE mobs, but also other players, group (3) usually also favours PvP to some extend. That doesn't make them 'PvPer', however. Group (3) enjoys high-sec in EVE, because it is credible that the PvE run empires protect their space and disallow wild shooting. They enjoy that in theory you could attack somebody else in high-sec, although almost nobody does it. They enjoy a gang of 4 high level undeads rogues in a WoW starter area, as it adds flavor to the world.
In contrast to group (2), group (3) doesn't really care that much about the level at which PvP is fair, or wether it is fair at all. As long as they experience a story that is immersive, credible and consistent they are all right.
They are the kind of people who angrily leave the cinema, because the evil guy was once again artificially stupid (which is why he was defeated). And besides: Why did he want to destroy the entire universe in the first place ??
Group (2) faces the prejudice of being anti social. Visit a WoW non-RP PvP server for a taste.
Group (1) faces the prejudice of being emotionally unstable. If their virtual character gets teleported against their will due to an action of another player they scream and whine. (But it doesn't matter at all, if 'only' a PvE mob is responsible).
Group (3) doesn't face much prejudice, because there are very few games for them. The PvP RP servers of WoW originally attracted some of them. As did Darkfall and EVE Online, of course.
I'm rather surprised to see you write this, given your promising previous blog entry as well as your comments on Tobolds blog.
ReplyDeleteYou're basically saying PvP:ers don't exist in Eve, because they, in general, sure as heck don't want fair PvP at the lowest level possible.
Or alternatively that they're actually VW people, and should therefor care about the backstory, the immersion.
But RP:ers are generally ridiculed in Eve. The more PvP centric the gathering, the less tolerance there is for RP. So they don't fit your category 3 either.
Also I doubt you'll find another PvP MMO where the metagame is as important as in Eve.
As has been said before, the persistent world coupled with losing your stuff when you get blown up, makes for a much more interesting and deeper PvP experience. It has little to do with backstory or immersion, what I would call RP in Eve.
You're basically saying PvP:ers don't exist in Eve, because they, in general, sure as heck don't want fair PvP at the lowest level possible.
ReplyDeleteI don't. At least I didn't intend to.
Group (3) finds a place in EVE, but group (2) as well. You can do PvP just for the sake of it in EVE.
But I have yet to meet somebody who 'just wants to do PvP and doesn't care about the world and doesn't care about fairness of the PvP at some level.
Don't switch my statement. I say that (3) likes EVE. I do not say that only (3) likes EVE.
But RP:ers are generally ridiculed in Eve. The more PvP centric the gathering, the less tolerance there is for RP. So they don't fit your category 3 either.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree. On Saturnday two pirates dropped by and destroyed by new cruiser while I was missioning in low-sec. I don't say that I enjoyed that very moment, but I did enjoy the fact that this is possible. The experience that the world is full of life, dangerous and pirates are real.
(And I learned a few things - next time won't be as easy for them :).
I wondered why they podded me, though. I mean, I was thankful, as flying back in the pod would have been quite boring. Having 700k skill points, I don't really care about needing a clone and am thankful for the teleport. Also, now I have one month to take my revenge ;)
Still, it's rather strange that they didn't ask for a ransom or even initiated contect. Maybe they weren't english (?).
I consider myself part of group (3) mostly and generally enjoy this kind of PvP.
But RP:ers are generally ridiculed in Eve.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing:
If you are in a null sec corp and do PvP that may not be RP, but it is always immersive. In fact all PvP in EVE is quite immersive, because the whole game is based on solid lore.
I certainly belong to group (3), but I generally do not speak in character or do 'RP'.
I dislike things like meeting at a virtual tavern and dancing. But I enjoy going to battle with friends and to fight for my corp. That's certainly more immersive than a battleground ;)
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ReplyDeleteWell, certainly late to the party, and really kind of off-topic -- for which I apologize...
ReplyDeleteBut just how CONCORD is credible in Eve? They are cheaters with god-like powers -- why any 'pirate gangs' still exists is a mystery... Probably they pay CONCORD for protection or something.
@Solf:
ReplyDeleteWell, no game is perfect.
If you want a safe high-sec you need something like Concord.
All alternatives either mean a non-safe high sec, some equally artifical idea like Concord, or massive costs for little benefit for the developers.
I don't disagree with you that high-sec space is needed and is non-trivial (possibly downright impossible) to implement in a way that makes sense.
ReplyDeleteI just find it surprising that you said that Eve's high-sec is credible. In my opinion it's a pure gameplay/game-mechanics feature that cannot be rationally explained in the 'game world' context.
... and to add to my previous post... More credible would be if noone would come to shoot the attacker... but he'll be shot at by forces stationed near gates, facilities, perhaps gates would refuse him transition, when he's killed/podded he would be arrested and what not. Perhaps not even 'reincarnated' if he's podded.
ReplyDeleteBut for gameplay reasons that's not what happens.
ReplyDeleteI just find it surprising that you said that Eve's high-sec is credible. In my opinion it's a pure gameplay/game-mechanics feature that cannot be rationally explained in the 'game world' context.
Compare it to other games. In other games you'd simply be unable to target somebody in high sec at all. EVE, at least, tries to remain credible.
The motto of this blog is:
A MMORPG has to be as immersive, credible and consistent as possible and as little as necessary.
Concord is a matter of 'as little as necessary'. I still want to play a game and not a perfect simulation.
However, think about it and your suggestion: Maybe Concord in high sec could indeed be improved if gates were just closed to pirates.
Like: The faction that controls the system has very good scanners that cover the whole system. Thus, they know if you kill somebody unprovoked. Although they do not interfere with you killing him, they close all jumpgates of high sec for you. If you get next to one you will be shot by stationed milita. You cannot use any facilities in the system. Militia also puts a considerable bounty on your head.
If you want to remove these penalthies you need to pay a considerable amount of money to the victim: 2x the costs of the ship/implants/clone etc. according to the current buy prices in the region/universe.
Might work and might be more credible. But: Is it worth the effort?
I guess our discussion confirms that the 'credible' point you're talking about is completely arbitrary for each person involved.
ReplyDeleteYou say that CONCORD is credible 'enough', I say it is not (not that I truly care, btw, I tend to do not think in those terms about the games I play). Therefore it is most likely that what you personally find immersion-breaking (non-credible) is perfectly okay for someone else.
I guess all I'm saying that maybe you need to qualify your credible / non-credible comments :)
This is subjective. Of course it is.
ReplyDeleteIf I wanted a perfect real world simulation I stepped outide.
Some comprimises need to be made.
A few months ago I watched the latest Star Trekmovie with my father. We agreed that it is bullshit. Completely uncredible, unimmersive. The characters acted like little children. We couldn't explain half of their actions.
A few weeks later I've been pressured by some friends to watch it with them again. They liked it.
No matter how many things I listed that were just stupid, they didn't care.
Different people have different opinions. That doesn't mean that opinons are irrelevant, though.
I say that a MMO has to be as immersive, credible and consistent as possible and as little as necessary.
Where exactly something is considered necessary depends on the player.