tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post7978558256313649700..comments2024-01-18T16:20:09.743+01:00Comments on Nils' Blog: A CounterattackNilshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-47030441677833505522011-04-19T17:16:11.568+02:002011-04-19T17:16:11.568+02:00I know you've already thought through some loo...I know you've already thought through some loopholes, but I wanted to make sure you noticed this one:<br /><br />Player A and B don't like player C.<br /><br />Player A kills player B and player B labels player C a murderer.<br /><br />I can't imagine a way to make a game smart enough to recognize that this is what happened as opposed to player C actually being involved while still letting you mark everyone who is in a gang that decided to kill you. Player B could even attack player C and get some hits from him first if necessary.Sthennohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05429676469805661834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-49281595727150365572011-04-17T16:54:32.731+02:002011-04-17T16:54:32.731+02:00"The murder label seems over powering in the ..."The murder label seems over powering in the fact that what happens if the attacker loses and then labels the defender a murder. Is the defender really a murderer if he was defending himself?"<br /><br />As long as they aren't killing the attacker, they shouldn't be marked as a murderer. If I'm reading it correctly, you can defend yourself all you want, just so you're not killing to loot your attacker.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-6023750351777450252011-04-17T11:29:58.801+02:002011-04-17T11:29:58.801+02:00Thanks for the lengthy comment, Roq.
I want all pl...Thanks for the lengthy comment, Roq.<br />I want all players to be roughly equivalent in power. <br /><br />You write <br /><i>If stuff is to have any value then it must make it's owner more awesome in combat and if it's going to be very valuable then it must have a significant effect.</i><br /><br />---<br />I disagree. What you describe leads to exponential character power progression. This requires special regions, level ranges, friends that cannot play with friends, empty world, absurd PvP, gamey feeling and all this stuff that is no fun at all. The implications of it extreme.<br /><br />I think that players consider a 10% buff (which is just recogniseable) about as valueable as a 1% buff - if they don't compare it to the 10% one!<br /><br />I know that I and many others where trying to collect item sets classic WoW that would add some 3% crit chance. They were considered extremely powerful - and desireable. The fallacy of modern MMORPGs is the idea that players need to really become more powerful to consider an item worthwile. We do not! <br />If you compress the entire game into a power range of factor 2, you <br />still have people longing for updates. And you circumvent all those problems of exponential character power progression.<br /><br />I always want the cake and eat it, too ;). If you add item decay, you can have relatively powerful items (factor 2x is still a lot!) and a vibrant economy. Of course, the game cannot be about epics and itemlevels in this case. I think that's a good thing.<br /><br />The special skills for the PKer, I mentioned, would be non-combat related. They would make the PKer better at tracking people or finding out about busy trade routes. The items they would need to carry to acess/improve these skills would be non-combat, too. Some trinket of the mercenary association could be very expensive and lootable. This way the PKers play a high risk, high reward game, while the resource collecter plays a low risk, low reward game.Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-89705273565848180902011-04-17T10:58:31.576+02:002011-04-17T10:58:31.576+02:00Just another thought that would be great to see yo...Just another thought that would be great to see you address in your revised design:<br /><br />A problem that arises in FFAPVP MMO designs and I haven't seen a good solution to is the tension between the in game economy and the fact that you really want players who meet each other in PvP (wherever that might be) to be roughly equivalent in power (well at least I would want that :)). If stuff is to have any value then it must make it's owner more awesome in combat and if it's going to be very valuable then it must have a significant effect. But this then means you have to make a choice - either you have an economy and combat isn't fair (WoW approach) or you have no economy, everyone has much the same gear, but combat is fair (Guild Wars 1 approach). Your current design seems to want to have it's cake and eat it, in this respect:<br /><br />For instance, in your current ideas giving PKers special skills and armor (presumably in order to have something of value in your game that people can work for) just exacerbates the imbalance in power, creating a fox/rabbit situation; but in practice who is going to want to play the rabbit? Certainly not me, I wouldn't touch a game where there was a class of super imba PK killers who could jump out on me at any time, whether there was some kind of bounty system or not.<br /><br />n reality, for many of us, annoyances happen in the here and now and, unless the wound is very deep, it's of little conseqence that the cause of our annoyance gets some debuff later. Further you can't really make debuffs too severe *or* long lasting, because then neither the rabbits nor the foxes will want to play your game.Roqhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11432135488660187991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-87131713219774569682011-04-17T02:07:32.577+02:002011-04-17T02:07:32.577+02:00I would have some suggestions about two aspects of...I would have some suggestions about two aspects of your rules. <br /><br />The murder label seems over powering in the fact that what happens if the attacker loses and then labels the defender a murder. Is the defender really a murderer if he was defending himself?<br /><br />The other one is the Alarm system to notify everyone in a area when an intruder has entered their area. This would in essence would eliminate some interesting game mechanics like spying, assassination, sneak attack and so forth. You might not like all the aspects that come along with no alarms, but the alternative is everyone hanging out in the castle waiting for the alarm to go off and not playing the game. I.E. watching their territory. <br /><br />Maybe a better idea would be to hire NPC sentinels to patrol the territory, that way you still get something of an alarm, but also gives the interloper a chance to avoid.Armatushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00460215360547996030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-85011102811287982252011-04-16T23:26:49.958+02:002011-04-16T23:26:49.958+02:00Roq, the PKer wants to wear special equipment that...Roq, the PKer wants to wear special equipment that allows him to access/train special PKer skills. <br /><br />Naked players or players who don't wear enough equipment are subject to serious penalties in combat.<br /><br />About attacking weakened players: It's not possible to prevent him from doing this and succeeding. <br /><br />The only thing that helps here is to allow the killed player some kind of revenge. And the only way to do this is the have a system that knows who was the bad guy.<br /><br />I am almost inclined to say: Forget this post. I hope to have a better one soon :)Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-73994704290221839772011-04-16T23:16:51.581+02:002011-04-16T23:16:51.581+02:00"Depends on whose equipment you are talking a..."Depends on whose equipment you are talking about. The guy who hacks lumber: cheap equipment. The player killer: expensive equipment."<br /><br />Why would a PKer bother with expensive equipment? You've allowed players to be 2X as strong as other players. And if that isn't enough they can stooge around and catch other players when they've been weakened by a mob, which is the normal modus operandi of these despicable individuals...Roqhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11432135488660187991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-7357329123109982692011-04-16T19:48:01.334+02:002011-04-16T19:48:01.334+02:00Gilded, you are also teleported away as a death pe...Gilded, you are also teleported away as a death penalthy. In a world without (other) teleports this can be quite inconvenient.<br /><br /><br />Roq, I hope you don't make the mistake to think inside the framework of a WoW-like MMORPG. A lot of the features I would want independent from any PvP considerations.<br /><br />---<br /><i>So there has to be some compelling gameplay reason (other than simulating the small % of real world murdering psycopaths) for allowing allies to kill each other and I just can't see what that is. </i><br /><br />Which allies? There are no factions in the world. Everybody is free to join any group that accepts him.<br /><br />---<br /><i>Doesn't Darkfall have looting rules a bit like yours? I hear that it results in players mostly running around in their underwear :).</i> <br /><br />Haven't played Darkfall much. But I'm pretty sure there are some similarities.<br /><br />Underwear would be a very unwanted side-effect. But in the post there are incentives to not wear underwear, if you read carefully.<br /><br />---<br /><i>Even if that didn't happen it doesn't seem that looting is going to be worth the candle since equipment is so cheap.</i><br /><br />Depends on whose equipment you are talking about. The guy who hacks lumber: cheap equipment. The player killer: expensive equipment.<br /><br />---<br /><i>Doesn't your system essentially remove most of the character and gear progression aspect, which is the core attraction of MMORPGs for many?</i><br /><br />I would want to do this anyway. Character progression should be mostly horizontal and with heavily diminishing returns in the vertical.<br />Gear progression doesn't exist in the traditional way. You are as well equipped as you can financially afford. <br />his is mostly dependent on how well your group is doing. Most stuff is crafted. You might find a rare weapon in some ruins, but everything decays with time and use.Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-83016341538721130252011-04-16T19:28:15.682+02:002011-04-16T19:28:15.682+02:00Aren't you putting the cart before the horse a...Aren't you putting the cart before the horse a bit here. I mean What kind of gameplay is it that your system is designed to facilitate? How would the rules you outline here lead to more interesting open world PvP (if they do) than say Warhammer's rules or the planned design for open world PvP in Guild Wars 2?<br /><br />Rather than having complex rules (6 month debuff!?) that are designed to stop allied players from killing each other, it's obviously simpler to just prohibit them from so doing - so there has to be some compelling gameplay reason (other than simulating the small % of real world murdering psycopaths) for allowing allies to kill each other and I just can't see what that is. As Shintar said about your last post "the biggest problem is the inherent contradiction of wanting people to PvP and yet not wanting people to PvP".<br /><br />Doesn't Darkfall have looting rules a bit like yours? I hear that it results in players mostly running around in their underwear :). Even if that didn't happen it doesn't seem that looting is going to be worth the candle since equipment is so cheap. Doesn't your system essentially remove most of the character and gear progression aspect, which is the core attraction of MMORPGs for many?Roqhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11432135488660187991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-87268340725086574572011-04-16T18:11:34.010+02:002011-04-16T18:11:34.010+02:00I like that there is a difference between "ki...I like that there is a difference between "kill" and "defeat". Is there a death penalty other than being open to being looted?Gildedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10405106959355145426noreply@blogger.com