tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post7861648300936820270..comments2024-01-18T16:20:09.743+01:00Comments on Nils' Blog: Skill-Based GamesNilshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-54369497068185710912011-04-16T01:43:33.419+02:002011-04-16T01:43:33.419+02:00Beneficial info and excellent design you got here!...Beneficial info and excellent design you got here! I want to thank you for sharing your ideas and putting the time into the stuff you publish! Great work!<br /><br /><a href="http://consultantmediconline.com#991" rel="nofollow">cheap nolvadex</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-80275314064731645582011-02-06T20:23:41.736+01:002011-02-06T20:23:41.736+01:00For an example of the work that skill-based games ...For an example of the work that skill-based games require, have a look at Dawntide, more specifically <a href="http://www.dawntide.net/forum/topic/1005670" rel="nofollow">this</a> thread.<br /><br />The guys from WAI started out with a simply skill-based system and iterated on it more often that I could count during the last year. And still you get the "optimize the fun out of it"-problem. Very beautiful example this thread is ;)Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-31198124472828510432011-02-06T19:39:11.290+01:002011-02-06T19:39:11.290+01:00Thanks for the comment, Christian. I absolutely ag...Thanks for the comment, Christian. I absolutely agree that the circumstances matter. There might be circumstances that make a skill based-ansatz better than a classed-based one. <br /><br />In some way Eve Online is such an example. You have a pretty standard skill based game, but depending on which of your starships you enter, only a fraction of them is useful. This happens very naturally in this theme.<br /><br />You can translate this into a 2D-fantasy game by using a ghost-inhabits-body theme, if you want. But you could also argue that ships in Eve are your classes and instead of playing a twink you switch to another ship.<br /><br />Still, Eve Online appeals to the people who like skills. So perhaps the mission is accomplished ?<br /><br />What I want to warn every future game designer about is using a skill-based system without thinking about it <b>very</b> carefully. Most of these systems, I know, were created with the player=>game relationship in mind, only. The game=>player relationship was ignored.<br /><br />For example, The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion was a very bad example. The only reason it could work was that it was single player and players could restrict themselves from optimizing the fun out of it. <br />I have to admit that this made it relatively hard for me to enjoy the game. But as soon as I managed to do it, I had a blast. That wouldn't have been possible in a multiplayer environment.Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-9537760627508840452011-02-06T19:07:47.609+01:002011-02-06T19:07:47.609+01:00I know skill based MMORPG are still possible. Just...I know skill based MMORPG are still possible. Just because there is a controversy, people talking about it with passion on "both sides" demonstrates that class design isn't the only (nor the best) way to go.<br /><br />Yes, there are problems inherent to it, but then the same can be said about class systems.<br /><br />My biggest problem I see in the discussion of this topic is that there is this unspoken "if all things are equal, then" hanging above it, which is in my opinion a gigantic excrement hill to start out from. Game design is a sum of its parts. Class and/or skill is one of those parts in a RPG.<br /><br />So while classes make sense in, oh let's say WoW, that doesn't mean it's the same for let's say, Ultima Online. You have swords and magic, you play online and stuff get's saved there. Your similarities end just about there.<br /><br />Clone WoW and put skills in it, is about the worst possible thing I can imagine at this point. And I got hell of an imagination. But if a new game comes along, carefully crafted with everything (World, Crafting, Trade, Items, etc) in mind towards skill based play, yes it still will be difficult to balance (something even Blizzard hasn't licked in WoW I'd like to point out). But then you can't balance perfectly at all times anyways. The question is, can you strike a balance good enough so the game is still fun and challenging? That applies to either system.<br /><br />People are actually looking for different games than what they are seeing now, which is WoW, WoW clones and yeah, that’s most of the market. There is such a passionate debate about it, because the same thing over and over get's boring with time. And hopefully new games are actually setting themselves apart through other things than new graphics and more classes in the future. That's something I would like to see.Christian Riesenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03024151721437741055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-86817352757942139202011-02-06T16:58:13.898+01:002011-02-06T16:58:13.898+01:00Exactly, Klepsacovic. The insight at the core of t...Exactly, Klepsacovic. The insight at the core of this is that players don't just want to play the game and turn out to be some guy with a big sword. <br /><br />(As if that were even possible in skill-based systems. If you play a skill-based game like this you usually turn out to be some completely ridiculous and ineffective character.)<br /><br />Players want to build their character from the beginning. If they didn't want to do that we wouldn't have to include any kind of character progression in the first place. (Such a game could still be fun, but that's off-topic)Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-84465513983940875462011-02-06T16:51:22.108+01:002011-02-06T16:51:22.108+01:00"Sometimes people want to get better at X, bu..."Sometimes people want to get better at X, but they don't want to do X. This sounds counter-intuitive, but it is no rare thing to encounter."<br />I'd be planning to write about this. Let's say I want to be an archer, but at skill one ranged attacks alone won't kill an enemy, so next thing they're close up and I'm killing them with melee and probably leveling up my armor skill in the process. Now I have maybe two attacks with ranged, two with melee, and an attack or two against my armor skill; my potential skill for ranged-based leveling is now diluted by a third. Or on the other hand, maybe I prefer melee, but it still makes sense to start with some ranged damage to soften up the target, but again, my skill gets diluted by some other action.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-24725882645401236322011-02-06T16:17:00.621+01:002011-02-06T16:17:00.621+01:00"People like improving in one flash more than..."People like improving in one flash more than getting better continuously"<br /><br /><br />I think what people like is to feel the difference when they've improved. So improvements in big steps, or extra abilities are fun because they're very noticeable. A hat with +1 strength on it, not so much.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com