tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post3610864371119344300..comments2024-01-18T16:20:09.743+01:00Comments on Nils' Blog: The Evil in F2P gamesNilshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-17621375723382864022011-06-03T23:58:17.705+02:002011-06-03T23:58:17.705+02:00I think the key is to look at how the payment meth...I think the key is to look at how the payment method affects the development of the game.<br /><br />In a P2P game, the company's goal is to encourage players to subscribe for another month, which means that they have to try to keep the game fun.<br /><br />In a F2P game, the company's goal is to encourage players to keep spending money. That's an incentive for them to make the game <i>less</i> fun, so that people will spend money to skip the un-fun parts.<br /><br />But it depends on what's in the cash shop. Personally I don't mind the W101 and DDO model where you're mostly paying for new zones or cosmetic items. But if you have to pay for consumables and transient weapon upgrades in order to enjoy the game, then that's evil. (Especially if the game gets more expensive as you go up levels.)Chaos Engineerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02677953943478213802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-49266948620967647322011-06-01T22:23:30.151+02:002011-06-01T22:23:30.151+02:00World of Tanks is actually pretty Less-Evil on thi...World of Tanks is actually pretty Less-Evil on this one. The primary product that they sell is a premium account, which is about $12 in real dollars, and gives you time and a half on game experience/money, and some social features.<br /><br />They keep things in whole numbers (1200g for premium, not 1155g). The "premium" tanks that you buy for cash, are, frankly vanity/nub items. They are slightly more powerful than a stock tank of the tier, but no where near as powerful as a fully upgraded earned tank for the tier. All in all, I think they have a good balance.Phelpshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06270536870200063563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-42978089431388923292011-05-30T05:28:41.760+02:002011-05-30T05:28:41.760+02:00Hrm.
I don't find F2P to be more or less tran...Hrm.<br /><br />I don't find F2P to be more or less transparent than subs.<br /><br />Though I do personally find cash shop on TOP of a subs model to be disgusting.<br /><br />As for the whole spiel about anyone playing F2P deluding themselves that they're not really spending that much...<br /><br />I've played 3 PWE games.<br /><br />Jade Dynasty - very beautiful skin, very boring game, very horrendously evil lottery system. I spent US20 on a flying mount (NEED it to progress, can't access areas w/o it) because it entertained me quite a bit in a mindless ratpellet kind of way for 3 months. Less than a sub. On my terms. Think of it as paying for an expansion, since it is NECESSARY to see new areas/complete content.<br /><br />Heroes of Three Kingdoms - Played on and off for about 2 months, spent - nothing.<br /><br />Forsaken World - Played for about 3 months now (and still playing). Spend US$30 but haven't actually used all the credits yet. Threw cash at it because I really feel they deserve it for this title. It's as good as WoW for solo play IMO, and I did play Cataclysm all the way from 1-85.<br /><br />---<br /><br />Non-PWE F2P:<br /><br />Atlantica Online - On and off over the past year, spent nothing.<br /><br />Chronicles of Spellborn (now dead) - ? they had a cash shop ? XD<br /><br />DDO - Hated it within first 5 min, uninstalled.<br /><br />Pirates of the Burning Sea - On and off for 3-4 months, spent nothing.<br /><br />---<br /><br />Maybe I'm just deluding myself, but so far, for me, F2P looks WAY cheaper than my 3 year WoW subs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-86074786974443738652011-05-28T02:34:37.736+02:002011-05-28T02:34:37.736+02:00@Nils
Blizzard fought gold sellers by making gold ...@Nils<br />Blizzard fought gold sellers by making gold more and more readily available in-game.<br /><br />It was rather effective in my opinion.Hugmenothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07634767362565932566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-42802341582646691062011-05-28T01:30:36.471+02:002011-05-28T01:30:36.471+02:00Nils wrote:
for some reason you assume that I con...Nils wrote:<br /><br /><i>for some reason you assume that I consider the WoW microtransaction acceptable. I don't .. Certainly not that stupid pony ;)</i><br /><br />I don't assume anything. My point is that most of these sins you attribute to free-to-play games can be attributed to "subscription" games as well. Again, there's nothing inherent in the subscription business model that stopped WoW (or any other game) from offering a sparklepony, or using rounding, or any other trick.<br /><br /><i>It's just that with a monthly sub you lose a maximum of the monthly sub per month. Which is usually about $15. With a f2p game, or more specifically, with microtransactions you can lose a fortune in one day.</i><br /><br />And this strikes to my very point: if you see it as "losing" money, <b>you should not be playing the game in the first place</b>. I see it as exchanging my money for entertainment. I see it as supporting a game, developers, and even a company that provides me with entertainment I feel is worth the price.<br /><br />And, as I said above, if you want to include all your expenditures, then you need to include the costs of boxes and expansions in the cost of a "subscription" game. That means to play the latest version of WoW, a person will have to "lose" over $50 for the first month. Let's not forget that the solution to falling subs is for Activision/Blizzard to start making <i>more</i> expansions for people to buy, thus increasing the price WoW players will pay without actually increasing the subscription. (Note that shipping a $40 expansion every year instead of every 2 years is the same effect as increasing the subscription price by $1.66 per month.)<br /><br /><i>Monthly subs are more transparent</i><br /><br />No, you (and most experienced MMO players) are just more used to the subscription business model so you think you understand it better. You lash out at mere possibilities of things that could go wrong with the new model. Yet it seems you don't notice the very same psychological tricks, or try to explain away their effects, when they appear in your preferred business model. You might want to check that link to the "Bias Blind Spot" again. ;)Psychochildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06066038436696697892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-75401378179121758292011-05-28T00:25:41.793+02:002011-05-28T00:25:41.793+02:00Psychochild,
for some reason you assume that I co...Psychochild, <br />for some reason you assume that I consider the WoW microtransaction acceptable. I don't .. Certainly not that stupid pony ;)<br /><br />Also, please have a look at the last post where some of this discussion was also continued.<br />I stated there already that many of these tricks can be used on time, instead of money in a sub based game.<br /><br />It's just that with a monthly sub you lose a maximum of the monthly sub per month. Which is usually about $15. With a f2p game, or more specifically, with microtransactions you can lose a fortune in one day.<br /><br />Also, it's just not that effective to make you run daily dungeons like crazy. But it is very effective to make you buy something every day like crazy.<br /><br />Monthly subs are more transparent, although they are not perfectlky transparent. And the consequences of falling for the psychological tricks cannot be as dire.Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-3108296731803173122011-05-28T00:16:43.542+02:002011-05-28T00:16:43.542+02:00Lots to cover here. And, let me repeat once again...Lots to cover here. And, let me repeat once again what I've said before: subscription games can be just as dishonest.<br /><br /><i>The euphemistic name</i><br /><br />Depends on the game. You could play DDO, LotRO, or <i>Puzzle Pirates</i> (PP) entirely for free. In DDO you have <a href="http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=245868" rel="nofollow">"favor grinding"</a> where earn point reward for free. It's slow and repetitive, but it's entirely possible. In PP, you can exchange your in-game currency (pieces o' eight) for the purchased currency (doubloons) via an exchange market.<br /> <br />And, let's not forget that "subscription" games cost a lot more than just the subscription: the base box and the latest expansion also cost money, plus any “additional services”.<br /><br /><i>Just buy once</i><br /><br />Or, you can look at it as people supporting a game they like. By the time a person overcomes the inertia to buy points, they're probably interested enough in the game to care. The better trick is to make sure people enjoy the game to ensure multiple purchases.<br /><br /><i>Limited offer</i><br /><br />Like a sparklepony!<br /><br /><i>Special offers</i><br /><br />Like buying 3 months at once for the prices of... 3 months.<br /><br /><i>Rounding</i><br /><br />Like how a 1 month WoW sub costs $14.95 or 12.99€.<br /><br /><i>Pride and status</i><br /><br />Like a cool flying mount that you can only get in a raid. So, stick with the game longer and spend more time raiding and maybe you can get it!<br /><br /><i>Peer pressure</i><br /><br />If you don't buy the latest expansion, you can't play with your friends who are having fun in the new areas!<br /><br /><i>Help a friend</i><br /><br />This is a much bigger thing with social games, but the gifts are usually free. They're intended to keep you in the game.<br /><br /><i>Charity</i><br /><br />You mean like if you bought one of the two pets offered, then Blizzard would donate half the proceeds to charity? But, if you bought the other pet offered at the same time, they’d pocket all the money?<br /><br /><i>Controversial items</i><br /><br />I really should just cut and paste the world "sparklepony" repeatedly.<br /><br /><i>Obscure payment</i><br /><br />I've never seen this. In fact, DDO emails me every time I make a purchase in the game with an itemized list of what I've bought. Even if it only cost 0 or 1 point on special.<br /><br /><i>Focus on children</i><br /><br />Due to a law called <a href="http://www.coppa.org/" rel="nofollow">COPPA</a> in the U.S., most games have rules forbidding players under 13 from playing the game in order to avoid problems.<br /><br /><i>Gambling</i><br /><br />WoW made a rule that you couldn’t run a random number casino. They stopped this because gambling is very heavily regulated in the U.S. and the last thing they wanted was scrutiny over gambling laws. The gaming industry (gambling) isn't the same as the game industry, and a lot of reputable companies take pains to stop that.<br /><br /><i>You already spent so much.</i><br /><br />You've been paying subscriptions and buying expansions for 2 years. If you stop now, all that money is wasted!<br /><br /><i>Price anchoring</i><br /><br />As I said yesterday, this can happen with monthly subscription bundles as well.<br /><br /><i>Everybody else does it</i><br /><br />Look at all those sparkleponies! And, everyone in the who list is in the newest expansion areas!<br /><br /><i>Limits on how much you can spend</i><br /><br />Actually, this is a limit to make the game less appealing to credit card fraud. It limits the amount of money that can be poured into the game. Most games will lift the limit once you're a proven customer.<br /><br />So, at the risk of sounding like a broken record: any company that wants to use psychological trickery on you will do so regardless of the business model. Most of these reasons are actively used by subscription-based games as well. You can just as easily have a virtuous company using a free-to-play business model, and a unscrupulous company using a subscription business model.Psychochildhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06066038436696697892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-39914940270628903982011-05-27T21:41:22.701+02:002011-05-27T21:41:22.701+02:00Why would Blizzard fight gold selling?
One of the...Why would Blizzard fight gold selling?<br /><br />One of the major problems for gold farming on a subscription game is the conflict of interests. Gold farmers are still customers; their participation in the game still gives the developer money. You can be sure that Blizzard knows who the gold farmers are and that Blizzard will ban them for the financial boost that comes from having them make new accounts. There was an interesting talk about the process that I wish I could find, but the bottom line is that the subscription model makes every player an equal paying customer (not including regional differences), even the farmers and trouble makers.Gildedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10405106959355145426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-16839559952501245792011-05-27T19:58:20.238+02:002011-05-27T19:58:20.238+02:00Max, I'd concentrate on fighting gold selling,...<i><br />Max, I'd concentrate on fighting gold selling, instead<br /></i><br /><br />Why fight what is natural. best way to bead black markets is legalization NOT more regulation and criminalization.<br /><br />Go with the flow not against it . Customers want it . You can use all the wonderful tricks you described (and more) to get more profit. Its a win/win.<br /><br /><br /><i><br />You can easily create a metric of social ties between accounts.<br /></i><br /><br />Which would take resources, which one would rather spend on something which improves gameplay.<br /><br />F2P is great model. I can see concerns with immersion , but thats what should be addressed, not the model itselfMaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14814638059509556522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-75138912750302088442011-05-27T19:22:42.434+02:002011-05-27T19:22:42.434+02:00Max, I'd concentrate on fighting gold selling,...Max, I'd concentrate on fighting gold selling, instead. This is one of the few issues where I agree with Gevlon: Blizzard isn't trying.<br /><br />You can easily create a metric of social ties between accounts. If accounts who don't know each other a lot (never whispered, never partied, etc) sudden exchange a lot of money or buy something cheap for a lot of money on the AH you check it manually. I bet it is 99% hit!<br /><br />Do something similar for accounts that suddenly log inw ith a different IP, banks or facebook already do that successfully.<br /><br />And, you could just send every suspicious account a whisper about the Tiananmen Square Massacre in 1989. Fighting the devil with tanks of holy water is a lot of fun, too.<br /><br />Finally, a game with a slow CPP and without teleport of gold/goods would eliminate the problem in a very elegant way.Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-77110986138482599592011-05-27T19:09:21.375+02:002011-05-27T19:09:21.375+02:00The difference is in the transparancy of the buine...<i>The difference is in the transparancy of the buiness model and in how much damage it can actually do. <br /></i><br /><br />So buying gold or powerleveling services is more transparent?<br /><br />Many people would like to pay a bit extra (you know most pc gamers are actually dudes in 30-40s with quite a bit of spare income) for something they enjoy without feeling like a drug junkie buying crack at the corner.Maxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14814638059509556522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-45086192735055211482011-05-27T19:06:04.205+02:002011-05-27T19:06:04.205+02:00er, omit that $50 in there. Multitasking during c...er, omit that $50 in there. Multitasking during commenting doesn't help.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-79197944790402062832011-05-27T19:04:48.909+02:002011-05-27T19:04:48.909+02:00I suggested a while back that SWTOR should use the...I suggested a while back that SWTOR should use the GW model. I'd buy it on day one if that were the case.<br /><br />Still, thinking of a $300 MMO, there's potential there, but I'd break it into pieces to help segment the market a bit. Using SWTOR as a model, I'd say $300 for everything as a single purchase (arguably, "lifetime subscriptions" do this), but break it into smaller $50 pieces. Say, a Jedi box ($75), a Smuggler box ($45), a Light Side box, a Dark Side box (each $160) and so on. In short, pay for what you'd play with and just pay once.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-71632269446448092742011-05-27T18:49:56.570+02:002011-05-27T18:49:56.570+02:00The difference is in the transparancy of the buine...The difference is in the transparancy of the buiness model and in how much damage it can actually do. <br /><br />However, I actually completely agree with you. I, too, prefer a one time transaction, like GW. Compared to the rest of the costs, server upkeep is almost for free nowadays.<br /><br />This is the most transparent business model with the best incentives for the developers. <br /><br />I just wish they would ask 300€ for GW2, because I want the game industry to make expensive games, and as I said repeatedly: MMORPGs are too cheap right now (unless you are poor and unexperienced and play f2p games).Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-19875346263158480332011-05-27T18:44:04.633+02:002011-05-27T18:44:04.633+02:00"Tish, if a sub falls below your radar it mea..."Tish, if a sub falls below your radar it means that you have enough money and just don't care enough.<br /><br />If you start spending too much money on a f2p game it means that you care too much about the game. More than you should."<br /><br />Curious bit of biased doublethink, that. Care to flip it around?<br /><br />"Tish, if an item shop purchase falls below your radar it means that you have enough money and just don't care enough.<br /><br />If you start spending too much money on a sub game it means that you care too much about the game. More than you should."<br /><br />And who decides how much is "too much"? That might sound innocuous, but it's a crucial question. Who is in control here? Is it the devs? Is it the player? Is it the players' peers, self-declared or otherwise? Is it the government?<br /><br />Mind you, I'm not a fan of either model, actually. I bought Guild Wars and buy sections of Wizard 101. I'm happy to buy content that I can play through whenever I feel like it.<br /><br />I hate subs and I can't stand item shop shenanigans. At least in F2P games, though, I can play a goodly chunk of the game without a cover charge, and for the devs, that makes a difference in conversion rates and retention. Yes, it means I have to watch my wallet. That's always going to be my job, though, not theirs. The devs just have to give me good reasons to willingly give them money. Coercion sucks... in either model.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-31062654613632343812011-05-27T18:31:33.013+02:002011-05-27T18:31:33.013+02:00Tish, if a sub falls below your radar it means tha...Tish, if a sub falls below your radar it means that you have enough money and just don't care enough.<br /><br />If you start spending too much money on a f2p game it means that you care too much about the game. More than you should.<br /><br />If you asked people who accidently were subbed for too long whether it was major problem, they'd say no, because if it had been a major problem they would have noticed earlier.<br /><br />However, if you ask somebody who accidently payed too much on a f2p game, whether it was a major problem, you have a good chance that he'd say yes.<br /><br />The point is that there are just a few ways to make a sub-player pay much more money than they want. And the maximum he can pay (using only the sub!) is $15 per month.<br /><br />But with a f2p game you can literally ruin yourself. And there are way more tools for the company to encourage you to do just that.<br /><br />In the end, that fact that the companies are switching to f2p is exactly the point, is it not? The business model obviously produces more money. So much money, in fact that it justifies the costs of switching and the cost in prestige. Only the companies that have a lot of prestige to loose, like Blizzard, still try to withstand.Nilshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06468755466492675831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-20016932791011447972011-05-27T18:21:54.854+02:002011-05-27T18:21:54.854+02:00So... customers need to think a little bit and hav...So... customers need to think a little bit and have self control or they risk losing money.<br /><br />...that's nothing new, and it's true no matter the business model. If anything, it's easier to lose with a sub because it slips under the radar thanks to "sunk costs" and habitual payments. Item shops keep presenting decision points that can trigger customer responses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-49878689068045740982011-05-27T16:36:11.708+02:002011-05-27T16:36:11.708+02:00Superb post, good job.Superb post, good job.Stabshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08716211705647213383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-59426162357256012772011-05-27T16:11:02.937+02:002011-05-27T16:11:02.937+02:00To be honest the main difference between the two i...To be honest the main difference between the two is that with f2p you have a choice.<br /><br />"They are about as free to play as a free demo of a pay-2-play game."<br /><br />This isn't true. Most of the time when this is the case the game gets a bad name (just look at Allods). In the case of buying additional content, that really isn't too different from buying an expansion in a subscription game, except it probably doesn't cost the price of a full retail game on top of a subscription.<br /><br />The two most important of your points (in my opinion) are the "just buying once" and the "peer pressure". If you see a lot of other people in the game using the shop then you will feel like there must actually be some value in using it. You also feel more comfortable with when you know that it's acceptable in the community. After the first purchase the barrier is pretty much down.Gildedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10405106959355145426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7801344413612447717.post-18773756924309765952011-05-27T15:57:55.030+02:002011-05-27T15:57:55.030+02:00Such a great post! Thanks!
The only part I thin...Such a great post! Thanks! <br /><br /><br />The only part I think - this is not evil. ITs called marketing ! - and no sarcasm there, marketing is necessary. Humans are complicated monkeys so you have to resort to monkey tricksMaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14814638059509556522noreply@blogger.com